Episode 8

Holdovers of the Flower Moon: The Holdovers(2023) and Killers of the Flower Moon(2023)

This episode offers an in-depth analysis of two films: 'Killers of the Flower Moon' and 'The Holdovers. A Happy Hour for screenwriters and movie lovers!

Chris provides an update on his move and delays in publishing recordings due to technical difficulties. They then dive into a detailed discussion and analysis of two Oscar-nominated films, 'Killers of the Flower Moon' directed by Martin Scorsese, and 'The Holdovers' directed by Alexander Payne. Chris and Jerome review the film's themes, plots, character arcs, and critical elements, blending their critiques with related trivia and behind-the-scenes information. The episode also features humor and personal anecdotes, wrapping up with their unique 'Six Degrees' game linking actors from the discussed films.

00:00 Introduction and Updates

00:42 Technical Difficulties and Episode Setup

01:27 Discussing the Oscar Series

02:21 Killers of the Flower Moon Overview

04:13 Plot Breakdown and Analysis

07:36 Character Arcs and Themes

10:47 Midpoint and Turning Points

14:23 Investigations and Unraveling the Mystery

22:46 Climax and Resolution

26:50 Exploring Catholic Guilt in Scorsese's Films

27:21 Closing Image and Ernest's Goals

27:43 Trivia: The Osage Murders and the FBI

28:30 Budget and Collaborations of 'Killers of the Flower Moon'

28:59 Final Thoughts on 'Killers of the Flower Moon'

30:09 Introduction to 'The Holdovers'

31:34 Plot and Character Dynamics in 'The Holdovers'

32:59 Paul's Journey and Emotional Struggles

38:31 Midpoint and False Victory

41:39 Climax and Resolution

49:06 Final Thoughts and Trivia

Killers Of The Flower Moon

The Holdovers

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Transcript
Chris:

Hey, this is Chris.

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Wanted to jump in here right at the

beginning to give you an update.

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My wife and I moved in April 2024.

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Around the same time, my brother Jerome

was constructing a new studio in his home.

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And so, that's done.

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The move is done.

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We're finally getting back on track

trying to get these recordings edited.

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We have three in the can that Should

be coming out relatively soon.

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So thank you for your

patience and buckle up.

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This is going to be a short

one, but it was very fun.

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You are listening to the

Silver Screen Happy Hour.

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I'm Chris Wiegand along

with my brother, Jerome

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Jerome: Present and accounted for,

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Chris: He started drinking like 10

minutes ago because we had some technical

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difficulties and this is going to

be a shorter episode because of it.

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Yeah, so let's just jump in.

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I'm fighting a cold, you probably hear

a wheeze in my voice every time I laugh.

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So this is the first episode

we've ever done where you're

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actually not drinking anything.

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Yeah, I gotta, as soon as I jump

off or I'm getting in a car with

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my son and driving him to the

airport, he's going down to Savannah.

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He's flying to Savannah, I should

say, to see his girlfriend.

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So,

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Jerome: So it's responsible

that you're not drinking.

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Chris: Yeah, yeah, it's

just being responsible.

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Jerome: Me, on the other hand,

am irresponsible, as usual.

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Alright, so what are today's movies?

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Chris: We are continuing our Oscar

series, so we're going to be doing The

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Holdovers and Killers of the Flower Moon.

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Jerome: Now, are we, have we decided

this is our last of our Oscar season?

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Chris: Well, I mean, we didn't do all

the Oscar nominated best pictures.

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Jerome: There's fuckin ten of them, man.

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I know, I know.

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Chris: How about, only if there's a,

like, overwhelming demand from the fan

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base that we do, I don't know, like

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Jerome: Poor Things vs.

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American Fiction would be the last

two that we would consider doing.

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Chris: And I haven't

seen either of them yet.

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I actually

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Jerome: You saw American Fiction?

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Chris: Oh, no, I'm

sorry, American Fiction.

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I was thinking of Maestro, yeah,

because we talked about that one too.

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And so, anyways, I, yeah, I saw American

Fiction, I could do that one, but, you

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know, so we'll, we'll figure it out.

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Let's, I want to jump into this one

since it's going to be a shorter

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episode, let's just jump into it.

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Jerome: Okay, so which one

do you want to start with?

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Killers of the Flower Moon?

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Chris: If we can do that

one in like 20 minutes.

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Three and a half hour movie.

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Jerome: Alright, so,

Killers of the Flower Moon.

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Let me give you the specs real quick.

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So, of course, 2023, same as all these

other ones, directed by Martin Scorsese.

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Screenplay was Eric Roth and Martin

Scorsese, based on the novel, Killers of

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the Flower Moon, The Osage Murders, and

the Birth of the FBI by David Graham.

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It is a running time of three hours.

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26 minutes had a budget of 200 million.

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It was released on October 20th, 2023,

and it made 157 million worldwide, which

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is good for 37th place on the world.

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Chris: It's crazy.

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Cause it costs them as much

as it costs to make Barbie and

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Oppenheimer to make that film.

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Jerome: Absolutely.

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What the um, but it will likely make.

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End up making all of its money back.

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It's at 157 right now.

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And with some Oscar note,

you know the fact that it was

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nominated for 10 Academy Awards.

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Chris: Will it though?

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Because isn't it on Netflix?

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Jerome: Yeah, well, no.

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Was it on Netflix?

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I know I streamed it,

but I can't remember.

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Oh no, Apple Plus.

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I streamed it on Apple Plus.

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Really?

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But, but you know somebody's

gonna, people are gonna start

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buying it on DVD and Blu ray.

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Oh, you're right.

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Yep.

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You know, so it's eventually, it'll

probably, even though it walked away

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empty handed at the Oscars, it had

10 A lot of buzz went around it.

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It likely will eventually

make its money back.

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This got Martin Scorsese to 16 total

Academy Award nominations in his career,

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including his 10th nomination for

Best Director, which is one more than

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Spielberg, and currently two shy of

William Wyler's 12, which is the lead.

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He only has one Oscar, unfortunately,

for:

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He should have more, but he only has one.

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Alright, it stars Leonardo DiCaprio

as Ernest Burkhart, Lily Gladstone

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as Molly Burkhart, and Robert

De Niro as William Hale, as well

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as Jesse Plemons as Tom White.

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What

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is your relationship to the movie?

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Chris: Well, I must have

seen it on Apple Plus.

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I remember watching it at home.

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Yeah, well, do you want

me to read the log line?

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Jerome: Log me.

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Chris: Okay.

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When oil is discovered in 1920s Oklahoma

under Osage nation land, the Osage

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people are murdered one by one, until

the FBI steps in to unravel the mystery.

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Jerome: Yes.

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Chris: So, it's a dark movie?

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My relationship To it, I understood

the Oscar hype, I thought it was a

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great film, I mean, the actors, the,

I don't know, I thought it was a good

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film, but I just, it wasn't my favorite

movie of the year, you know by several.

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Jerome: Mine either, and I love

Scorsese, but I agree with you.

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Chris: Yeah, it's, I mean, it

left you sick at the end, you

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know, like a lot of his movies do.

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Jerome: Yeah.

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So, alright, we have.

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Opening image, the Osage tribe,

Fairfax, Oklahoma, a tribe who

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is in complete understanding

that the white man is coming.

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The oil comes out of the ground

and the setup is laid out that

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the Osage nation have become rich.

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Like the richest of the

Native Americans in the land.

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Theme stated, Ernest

Burkhardt steps off the train.

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This is when we first

meet Leonardo DiCaprio.

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He's met by a solicitor, a little

person, who at the five minute

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mark is handing out pamphlets

and says to Ernest, Make it rich!

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You can make it rich here!

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Make it rich!

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You can make it rich here!

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This will be Ernest's theme throughout

the film as he clearly states later

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how much he loves money and how far

he will go and what will drive him

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through his emotional shifts of either

do the wrong thing, but get rich,

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or the right thing and get nothing.

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That'll be his back and forth emotional

tug of war throughout the film.

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Inciting incident, 13 minutes in, not

only do we meet William King Hale he

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likes to be called King but also, this

is the character played by Robert De

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Niro, but also Hale's discussions about

how the Osage are rich, but also sickly.

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He says, quote, not one of

them live over the age of 50.

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Now most of the premise is laid out

here too about how there's like white

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guardians that are entrusted with

the Osage wealth, and the idea is to

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marry them and gain the head rights.

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Then in the event of their death,

you then take their oil money.

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It's only hinted at in this part.

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It gets a, I think if there was

one flaw in this, they didn't

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explain that well enough.

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So what, what it was, they, they

gloss over it a couple times with

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dialogue, but here's how it works.

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So back then, The Osage people

didn't have the right to their own

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money, even though they had the land.

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They had to have a financier be in charge

of the money, usually a white banker.

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So, if they ever needed money, they'd

say, Okay, I want to take a loan out, or

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I need a thousand dollars, or whatever.

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Those bankers would then siphon

off money for themselves.

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So they knew that it was bullshit.

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So what they did is they

married white people.

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And thought, well, if it's my husband,

then he can get the money for me.

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And I don't have to worry about

him stealing it behind my back.

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Little did they know there was

worse, worse going at it than that.

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But anyway, all right.

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B story at 18 minutes, which is very early

for a traditional B story, especially

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for a film that's well over three hours

long, but Molly is introduced, enters the

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picture and meets Ernest and is clear.

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There's immediate attraction between them.

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She serves at the B story because she

will drive Ernest to his spiritual goal.

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Alright, side note why is this

Ernest's story and not Molly's?

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Well, I'll tell you why.

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Story structure wise, this, the book by

the way was about the birth of the FBI.

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It was mostly about the investigation.

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In this movie, the investigation's kind

of a second half movie kind of thing.

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And Molly largely disappears in the

second half when she's bedridden.

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So this is Ernest's story.

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This is how he has to do his growth and

development and find out, do I love my

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wife or do I want the money and the land?

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Chris: Well, the character that Leo

plays is how can I put this, kindly.

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I mean, doesn't seem

to have a very high IQ.

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Jerome: No, he's dim witted.

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Chris: His tug of war

doesn't seem very dramatic.

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I mean, I don't know.

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Jerome: He, well, because he wants

to be impressive to his uncle.

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And his uncle is promising him riches,

so of course he's gonna work for

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him and do whatever he needs to do.

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Then he falls in love with Molly and

now he's got this push and pull of,

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you know, of what he's going through.

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Margely, like I said, Molly's gonna

largely disappear in the second half.

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The character arc is all earnest.

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How, how Molly or any of the sisters

you would think, and this is the

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part where I mean, they should have

explained this a little bit better.

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But how Molly or any of the

sisters would want to get involved

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with any of these white guys?

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Considering that there's people

dying left and right is beyond me.

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But, like I said, It's how they felt they

could get better hands on their money.

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They even joke about it at one point

about, Oh, he just wants your money.

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You know what I mean?

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Like they say it almost as a joke, but

they're like, this is their best option.

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Right.

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Marry one of these white guys and

we have better access to our money.

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Okay.

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Catalyst Molly invites

Ernest over for dinner.

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This is a pretty big turning point

because this is where he meets the mother,

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Lizzie, who clearly doesn't like him.

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But it's clear after dinner or

during dinner that there is an

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obvious attraction between the two.

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This isn't like today, man.

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Back then, when you invited

somebody over for dinner to meet

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mom, you're getting married.

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Like, that's, that's kind of a big deal.

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And Lizzie, the mother, it's

interesting, she can't stand him.

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She only, and she even says later

to one of her daughters, Anna,

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you're my favorite because you won't

marry one of those white people.

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Even though Anna was fucking Byron, which

is Ernest's brother, it didn't matter.

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She didn't marry him.

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And all the other sisters

were marrying white people.

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And she didn't like that.

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The mother didn't like that

because she knew what was going on.

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Debate begins.

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The debate is whether or

not to enter into this.

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Sisters are gossiping later at

an outdoor event talking about

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how Ernest is a cow coyote.

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Where they acknowledge

That he's after the money.

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But she likes him, so she'll marry him.

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Again, it seemed weird at the beginning.

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When you knew, before you knew all

the laws and stuff, you watched

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this, and I was watching it

going, How do they not see this?

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Why would they marry any of these dudes?

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And then it, you know, as the movie goes

on, you kind of realize, like, oh, this

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is their only shot to get their money.

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Chris: Because they show them going into

the bank trying to get the money, and the

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banker's just giving them a hard time.

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Jerome: That actually happens way

later, which I thought they should

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have thrown a scene like that.

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Chris: Yeah, put that

right up front, right?

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Jerome: In the beginning, where,

yeah, Molly goes to ask for

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money, and the guy's like I don't

think you should have this money.

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Right.

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It's like, it's fucking my money,

dude, what are you talking about?

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So, alright, break into two,

Ernest and Molly get married.

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This 2, because now it's a strange new

world, upside down version of Act 1.

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For both Ernest and Molly.

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Fun and Games, Act 2 opens

with some trailer images as

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we deliver on the premise.

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Molly's sister Millie dies.

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Another instance where the Osage

dies young to a mysterious illness.

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And the head rights go to her husband.

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Her white husband, Bill Smith.

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Who Definitely wins the

douche of the movie award.

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As much as this movie is filled

with douches, Bill Smith seems

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to be the biggest douche.

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Right.

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And then after the death of his

wife, Millie, he immediately

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starts dating Rita, another sister.

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You know, for obvious reasons.

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Ernest and Molly waste

no time having kids.

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At one point, there's two old

white people looking at the kids,

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saying, they're commenting on how

one looks darker than the other.

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They're like, that one

definitely looks white.

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The other one looks savage.

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Savage is the word she uses.

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By the way, Vy and I

watched this movie together.

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We were both laughing at that part,

because our kids also are mixed.

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And Vivi looks darker, like my wife.

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And Val looks a lot like me.

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She's the white of the two.

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So we were laughing, because we were

like, I wonder if people think about

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that, about us, when we walk by.

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That.

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That one there looks savage.

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Oh god.

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Chris: I mean, it's good you

could joke about it, but that's

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for real how people talked.

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Oh, absolutely.

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I mean, 100%.

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Jerome: Absolutely.

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V jokes about how when she takes

the kids to the shopping market,

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she thinks they, she thinks, other

people think she kidnapped Val.

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Oh my god.

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Alright, more funny games

as now Lizzie becomes ill.

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Outspoken Anna has a big blow

up with Ernest's brother Byron.

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This leads to her gruesome death.

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The tribe has a meeting.

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They're flat out saying in this meeting

among all of them that the white men

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are killing their people for the oil

money and white William Hale is the one.

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Right there and yet and he's all yes,

let's find these killers motherfucker.

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It's you Yeah,

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it was like it gave you a

kind of a chill, you know,

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yeah, but that's right people don't

seem to notice They're just like

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yes, William Hale's on our side.

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Well,

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well, he did he did a

really good job, you know

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Yeah, he spoke their language and

everything, he learned their ways.

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He took care of them as best he could

on the surface, so that when this shit

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happened, nobody would suspect him.

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Right.

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We are introduced to the Shawn Brothers,

the Fairfax Doctors that Molly plain

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doesn't trust, and for obvious reason.

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We later find out that these are the

ones that are keeping these people sick.

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There's a reason why these are a

sickly people that don't live past 50.

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These fuckers are poisoning them, and

they're doing it on Hale's direction.

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And because it takes years to

die from this the assumption that

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the Osage bloodlines never live

long, it's never mysterious, and

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almost never has an investigation.

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Right.

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And they're on the payroll of Hale.

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When Molly finds out that she has

diabetes, she doesn't want to go to

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these doctors for insulin, she wants

Ernest to give her the injections.

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Okay, downfall of Henry Rhone becomes

apparent, he gets drunk a lot, he's

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suicidal, he was Molly's first husband,

and Hale puts a seed in Ernest's head

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that Henry might have Molly's head rights

because she was married to him first.

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Now, he doesn't, but this is Hale's

way of manipulating Leo, right, Ernest,

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into doing whatever he needs him to do.

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Mother Lily dies, or Lizzie, I'm sorry.

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Mother Lizzie dies.

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And this is getting to

be enough for Molly.

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Now she wants an investigation.

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She hires a private detective.

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Ernest is hell bent on getting

rid of Henry Roan and gets John

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Ramsey in on it to do the job.

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Midpoint scene.

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One hour and thirty nine minutes

into a three hour and twenty six

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minute film, Ernest hits his false

victory when Ramsey kills Henry Roan.

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This serves as an obvious

midpoint for several reasons.

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The story is now going to take a turn

because up until now, almost every

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murder seemed either natural, had

some explanation, You know, albeit

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weak, or had little investigation,

or little or no investigation at all.

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This time, they were supposed to

stage a suicide for a guy who's

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clearly suicidal, but dumbass John

Ramsey shoots him in the back of the

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head, and doesn't even leave the gun!

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He takes the gun with him!

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So, not a suicide anymore, dumb fucks.

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But anyway, so, I mean,

anyone watching that scene was

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probably like, doing what I did.

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And I was Like I said, me and I were

watching this and I was literally like,

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He shot him in the back of the head!

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And now he's leaving with the gun!

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I'm like yelling at the TV, You

gotta leave the gun, asshole!

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Not that it matters, you shot

him in the back of the head.

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Alright, so this is Ernest's tangible

goal of securing Molly's headrights.

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To him, this is his false victory, right?

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I got Henry Roan out of the way, now

I got Molly's headrights, and this

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guy was a problem, and now he's gone.

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Everything seems great.

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Bad guy's closing in.

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Almost immediately, things

start to turn sideways.

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Ramsey goes and arrives at Ernest where

he's shooting pool, and hands him the

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gun that he just used to kill Henry Roan.

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Ernest tells Molly she wants answers.

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He tells the very next scene, De

Niro's character Hale is pissed.

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He's screaming the same

things I was screaming.

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It was supposed to look like

a suicide, you dumbbell.

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Calls him a dumbbell.

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Uh, They try to pin it and then

Hale immediately goes into, this is

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William Hale's best attribute, he

immediately goes into damage control.

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Okay, let's go, get in the car.

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Where are we going?

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Well, we're gonna go

pin this on Roy Bunch.

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So he goes to Roy Bunch and

he's like, you better leave

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town, everyone knows it was you.

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And Roy Bunch is like, I didn't do

shit, what are you talking about?

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You know, cause he didn't do anything.

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So he ain't budging.

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Hale tries to intimidate or downright

eliminate any known attached strings.

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Bill Smith's dog is killed and left

for him at the front of his house.

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Hale directs Ernest to hire A.

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C.

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Kirby to take out Bill Smith so that

he can get his hands on the headrights

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left behind by both Millie and

Rita in the event of their deaths.

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Smith's house blows up, killing

Bill Smith and Molly's sister

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Rita and their natty daughter.

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Nanny, Nettie.

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That was a tongue twister.

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Rita and their nanny, Nettie.

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This forces Molly to want

to go to Washington D.

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C.

366

:

to to seek help in solving the murders.

367

:

This is the part that we talked

about where she goes to the bank

368

:

to get money for this travel

and they won't give it to her.

369

:

At this point, the doctors and Hale

give Ernest the poison to give to Molly.

370

:

They don't trust her, and

they want to keep her quiet.

371

:

They tell Ernest, Oh, this

is just to calm her down.

372

:

This is just to calm her down.

373

:

It's fucking poison.

374

:

It's gonna kill her.

375

:

Alright After getting the injections

and becoming ill from the poison,

376

:

Molly starts to have visions.

377

:

She sees the owl, right?

378

:

There's a, the mother makes a significance

in the earlier when she's dying, that

379

:

you see an owl when you're about to die.

380

:

So when we see Molly see the

owl, we're like, oh fuck.

381

:

She's on her way out.

382

:

She also says that she has a vision

of her mother, Lizzie, telling her to

383

:

speak to the man in the hat, which at

that moment doesn't seem to make sense.

384

:

However, the very next scene at

the two hour, four minute mark,

385

:

there's a knock on the door.

386

:

And who is it?

387

:

It's the man in the hat.

388

:

It's.

389

:

Tom White, played by Jesse Plemons,

who's from the Bureau of Investigations.

390

:

The newly formed Bureau of Investigations.

391

:

Chris: Or otherwise known as

Dead Eyed Todd from Breaking Bad.

392

:

Jerome: Yeah, todd from Breaking Bad.

393

:

And the funny thing is, he's played

nothing but great characters since then.

394

:

But I still can't get past his character.

395

:

Chris: Oh, every time we see

him in anything, Jessie's

396

:

like, it's Dead Eyed Todd.

397

:

Jerome: Yeah, it's fuck.

398

:

I don't even say dead.

399

:

I, I'm just like, Oh, it's Todd.

400

:

But, but like every movie since

then, he's been like a good guy.

401

:

Yeah.

402

:

Yeah.

403

:

Anyway, he shows up.

404

:

He's the man in the hat.

405

:

He wants to talk to Molly, but

Ernest won't let him at this point,

406

:

a bunch of other bureau agents.

407

:

This was the beauty of

the, the birth of the FBI.

408

:

Because it's before DNA, and they

didn't have a lot of scientific

409

:

labs or anything, they did shit a

wholly different way, which was cool.

410

:

The Bureau then goes undercover

to infiltrate Fairfax.

411

:

So one dude who looks Native American, his

name's John Wren, he goes there and says,

412

:

Oh, I'm Osage, I'm looking for family.

413

:

So of course they welcome him

in, and they start telling him

414

:

all the secrets of the town.

415

:

Right?

416

:

Another guy goes undercover

as the insurance guy.

417

:

I don't know if you noticed, when De

Niro goes to get what he thought was

418

:

going to be Henry Rohn's insurance

money, because Henry Rohn's now dead

419

:

and the guy won't give it to him.

420

:

That's an undercover investigations agent.

421

:

So they infiltrated the entire

town, both on the nose, which

422

:

Tom White wasn't hiding anything.

423

:

Right.

424

:

I'm, I'm here to investigate.

425

:

But then they implanted a bunch of other

seeds that were undercover to get info.

426

:

Okay, so Hale continues to cut ties,

he sets up Blackie, tells him to rob

427

:

a bank and dumbwrite drumwrite, then

informs the cops so that when they come

428

:

out of the bank holding all the money,

the cops are there to kill everybody.

429

:

However, The big problem with

that is drum, at the bank at Drum

430

:

Rite, Blackie doesn't get shot.

431

:

He gets arrested.

432

:

Yeah.

433

:

So he can, he's still alive to talk.

434

:

He does set up AC and Grammar.

435

:

Finally, he wants Ernest to sign over the

head rights to him in the event something

436

:

happens to him and Mo him and Molly.

437

:

This culminates in the All is Lost.

438

:

Chris: Which, wouldn't that make you

nervous after you've been through

439

:

everything you've been through?

440

:

Jerome: So far in this movie, whenever

somebody is said in the event something

441

:

happens to them, They fucking die.

442

:

Oh, you're going to kill me now?

443

:

But dumbass, dumbass Leo, as much as the

entire scene you can tell he doesn't want

444

:

to do it, he ends up signing at the end.

445

:

Like, he just doesn't fucking get it.

446

:

That culminates in the all is lost at the

2 minute 20 mark, or 2 minute 20 mark.

447

:

The 2 hour 20 mark.

448

:

Old man Elvin Reynolds spills everything

he knows, which is a lot, because all

449

:

he does is sit on this porch and watch

everything that happens in that town.

450

:

He tells everything to the Piero guys,

including about Kelsey, which, God,

451

:

this, I was wrong about Bill Hale.

452

:

Kelsey wins the douchebag

of the movie award.

453

:

This guy implicates himself by

going and he's asking the guy, he's

454

:

like, So, My Ex Wife If I adopt her

kids, and then they die, I get their

455

:

insurance money and head rights, right?

456

:

And the guy's like, okay, so you're

basically telling me you're going to

457

:

kill your kids once you adopt them?

458

:

And he's like, well, if collecting the

money isn't illegal, like, he's basically

459

:

Chris: No, he said something like, as

long as it's not illegal, he basically

460

:

Jerome: Yeah, as long as

it's not illegal, yeah.

461

:

So, obviously, leaving that office,

he's apprehended immediately, and thank

462

:

God, because this guy's a fuckin menace.

463

:

So, oh, and the Bureau acknowledges

that this is a trend, right?

464

:

That every time somebody tries to

take out insurance on somebody,

465

:

see, and nowadays, in your and my

world, It's so, you can't do this.

466

:

Like, it's so first of all, it's

a red flag if you take insurance

467

:

out on somebody and then they die.

468

:

Yeah.

469

:

But then, like, usually there's a certain

amount of time that has to go by anyway.

470

:

Like, if I take insurance out on you

471

:

Chris: Yeah, yeah,

472

:

Jerome: yeah.

473

:

You can't die for like a year or whatever.

474

:

Apparently back in 1920s Fairfax,

Oklahoma, this shit was like, I'm

475

:

gonna take insurance out on my car,

and then the next day the car explodes,

476

:

and they're like, alright, pay up.

477

:

Like, it was just how they did shit.

478

:

That's how they did

everything, apparently.

479

:

And the Bureau is kinda,

gets wind of this.

480

:

Oh, and it culminates when they're

all outside talking about their

481

:

plan, all these FBI, all these bureau

agents, and they notice that Hale,

482

:

William Hale's farm is on fire.

483

:

And one of the bureau guys says to the

other one, he just took an insurance

484

:

policy out on that farm with me,

like, yesterday, and now it's on fire.

485

:

And the other guy says, well, I guess

you'll be busy tomorrow morning.

486

:

Like they just, I mean it was so

fucking blatantly obvious how these

487

:

criminals were doing all this shit.

488

:

Dark night of the soul, Ernest

gives himself the poison in addition

489

:

to lacing Molly's injections.

490

:

He's obviously depressed

and drunk at this point.

491

:

He is at his lowest point.

492

:

And he is arrested in the next scene.

493

:

Break into three.

494

:

We're now full on in act three

now, since the proverbial shit has

495

:

certainly hit the metaphorical fan.

496

:

Everybody's going down now, including

Hale, who even gives himself up for

497

:

arrest because he thinks, I got all the

best lawyers, I got all the money, I'm

498

:

gonna get off, so it doesn't matter.

499

:

I'll do the nice gesture of surrendering.

500

:

Right.

501

:

Five point finale.

502

:

Here we go.

503

:

Gathering the team.

504

:

It's more like a disassembling of

the team as Blackie rolls on Ernest.

505

:

Ernest rolls on Ramsey.

506

:

Ramsey rolls on Ernest and Hale,

and then Blackie rolls on Hale.

507

:

They're all turning on each other.

508

:

Thankfully the officials find and save

Molly and get her out of that goddamn

509

:

house so they can get her some real

medicine and into a real hospital.

510

:

Execution of the plan.

511

:

Bureau's plan is to get Ernest

in court to admit to everything.

512

:

So he can take down Hale.

513

:

But when he gets in there he

stonewalls them and sides with Hale.

514

:

Chaos ensues.

515

:

Ernest does get to meet with Molly,

who's pretty much healed up now.

516

:

But she doesn't know

that she can trust him.

517

:

There's a family meeting where all the

white people in power are putting pressure

518

:

on Ernest to stay and side with them.

519

:

Kelsey, now with nothing to hide,

since this dumbass already pretty

520

:

much said everything he needed

to say, is now on the stand.

521

:

And he Barrys Hail and Ernest

with the story and they show

522

:

it how he killed Hannah.

523

:

Mm-Hmm.

524

:

Hannah Anna.

525

:

Mm-Hmm.

526

:

Earlier in the movie, which by

the way a little side note so we

527

:

don't get confused by the Anna's.

528

:

The sister was Anna who got killed.

529

:

Leo's latest kid in the movie, the baby's

name, they named Anna after the sister.

530

:

Chris: Right.

531

:

Jerome: That will be important

because of right now.

532

:

Chris: Yeah.

533

:

Jerome: High Tower Surprise.

534

:

Ernest is told his youngest daughter

Anna, died from whooping cough.

535

:

And although there's no direct

suggestion she was murdered, it seemed

536

:

pretty clear it was whooping cough.

537

:

It's hard to ignore that these

doctors may have been in on that.

538

:

Especially since, well, we'll get to it.

539

:

Oh, it's the next thing.

540

:

It's the next thing.

541

:

Okay.

542

:

Since the doctors were in

charge and they have everything

543

:

to lose if Hale goes under.

544

:

Dig down deep, fed up with all the lies.

545

:

Ernest tells Hale he's

going to roll on him, right?

546

:

He's going to tell him everything.

547

:

He obviously doesn't like this.

548

:

And he suggests, and here's the part where

you wonder if Anna's death to whooping

549

:

cough that the doctors were because De

Niro tells Leo, you have other kids.

550

:

Like, that's kinda like, he

just slides that in there.

551

:

Chris: Right, right, right.

552

:

But it's almost

553

:

Jerome: like a threat.

554

:

Oh yeah, it's 100

555

:

Chris: percent a threat, yeah.

556

:

Yeah,

557

:

Jerome: you don't wanna do this, right?

558

:

So it's very telling that he had

something to do with baby Anna's death.

559

:

Execution of the new plan.

560

:

Ernest is in court and

he rolls on everyone.

561

:

The truth finally comes out.

562

:

Except when he's face to face with Molly.

563

:

She flat out asked him if he poisoned her.

564

:

He says, nope.

565

:

Lies through his fucking teeth.

566

:

But he is honest about everything else.

567

:

He does take everything else down.

568

:

So despite not having the guts to

come clean to the mother of his

569

:

kids, Ernest does in fact earn his

spiritual goal, a goal he didn't

570

:

know he needed, which was to burn

down William Hale's entire operation.

571

:

Again, if you had told him at the

beginning that that was his spiritual

572

:

goal, he would have said no way, right?

573

:

He was there to work for his uncle, he

loved his uncle, he wanted the money.

574

:

His spiritual goal, which we always

say, what you did not know you need.

575

:

Was to take down the whole

operation, burn it all down.

576

:

Climax performance show recaps

the consequences like a newswire.

577

:

I thought this was an interesting touch

at the end, instead of showing like

578

:

printed words on the screen about what

happened, you know, 10 years later,

579

:

this, you know, or to take any more

time showing it, they do like this weird

580

:

newsreel thing where they're performing.

581

:

Right?

582

:

Actors are performing.

583

:

This is the scene that Jack White is in.

584

:

Chris: Yeah.

585

:

Jerome: Where he's the, he's

the radio host announcer.

586

:

Right?

587

:

And they're announcing kind of

what happens to each person.

588

:

Yeah.

589

:

Right?

590

:

Scorsese himself makes an appearance at

the end to speak on Molly's obituary.

591

:

Scorsese said later in a quote when

being interviewed, why he chose

592

:

himself to read it, he said it was

his only way to feel to, to rest, of

593

:

course, his own Catholic guilt, right?

594

:

Right,

595

:

Chris: right.

596

:

Jerome: He felt he had to read the

obituary to Molly because of just

597

:

the fact that everything had been,

you know, This story has been hidden.

598

:

Chris: I remember you telling me,

what, what movie were we doing

599

:

where you said every one of his

movies is about Catholic guilt.

600

:

So it has something like his

Catholic guilt comes through shows.

601

:

Jerome: Yeah.

602

:

Well, we were talking about

theme and I was, and I was

603

:

saying not to confuse this with.

604

:

Themes, like filmmakers themes,

and then I use that as an example.

605

:

For instance, every Scorsese movie

is about Catholic guilt, right?

606

:

Chris: There it is.

607

:

Jerome: So, yeah, there it is.

608

:

Closing image, Native American

tribe, legacies of Osage, present

609

:

day, representing those that have

survived the coming of the white man.

610

:

All right, so real quick again, notes

on the arc, Ernest's tangible goal was

611

:

to get rich by securing the head rights

to Molly's oil money and he basically

612

:

achieves that at the midpoint scene.

613

:

His spiritual goal, which he

did not know he needed, was to

614

:

burn the whole operation down.

615

:

Trivia!

616

:

Investigation of the Osage murders

was the first investigation ever

617

:

handled by the newly formed Bureau

of Investigations created by J.

618

:

Edgar Hoover, which would later be called

the FBI, Federal Bureau of Investigations.

619

:

However, interestingly enough, in the

:

620

:

Edgar, in which Leonardo DiCaprio plays J.

621

:

Edgar, there, to my recollection, because

I saw the movie, there's no mention.

622

:

of the Osage murders.

623

:

Interesting.

624

:

In that film.

625

:

Even though it was their

first investigation.

626

:

Yeah, you think they, yeah.

627

:

Yeah, they spent a lot of

time on the Charles Lindbergh.

628

:

Kidnapping, and then and of course

they spent a lot of time on Jay Edgar's

629

:

sexual history and his relationship

with his confidant, Clyde Tolson.

630

:

No mention of the Osage murders.

631

:

Chris: Right,

632

:

Jerome: right.

633

:

The budget for Killers of the Flower

Moon was an aforementioned 200 million.

634

:

40 million of that was Leo's salary.

635

:

Wow!

636

:

Most he's ever made on a movie.

637

:

That's pretty good payday.

638

:

This is funny too.

639

:

7th collab 7th collaboration between

Scorsese and DiCaprio, the 11th

640

:

between Scorsese and De Niro, the

4th between De Niro and DiCaprio,

641

:

but despite all that, it's the first

time all three have worked together.

642

:

Interesting.

643

:

I didn't know that.

644

:

Huh.

645

:

Yeah.

646

:

All right.

647

:

Thoughts.

648

:

Closing up thoughts on

Killers of the Flower Moon.

649

:

Chris: Well, I'll just say it's, it's

worth seeing for the performances.

650

:

I mean, it's a commitment.

651

:

I know, but I, you know, I'm

not, I'm not mad that I saw it.

652

:

You know what I mean?

653

:

It was, it was definitely worth seeing.

654

:

Yeah, didn't win best pitcher, but

I understand why, you know, I, I,

655

:

there were, there were, I don't know,

maybe it was just, I don't know.

656

:

I don't know.

657

:

I can't put my finger on why.

658

:

I, my, my heart didn't go for that

for best picture because it was a

659

:

fine, it was, it was a good movie.

660

:

You know, it

661

:

Jerome: was, I think the biggest

criticism is that it struggles to

662

:

find which story it wants to tell.

663

:

Yeah.

664

:

And like you said, they

would have set it up

665

:

Chris: and they didn't tell

it clearly in the beginning.

666

:

Like you said, and then that led to a

lot of, a lot of confusion for people.

667

:

Jerome: Right, so are we

telling Molly's story?

668

:

Are we telling the Osage women's story?

669

:

Are we telling Ernest's story?

670

:

Or are we telling the FBI's story?

671

:

Which story are we telling?

672

:

Right, right.

673

:

So, Scorsese obviously wanted

to tell all of those stories.

674

:

And that's how you get a

3 hour, 26 minute film.

675

:

Chris: Alright.

676

:

Do we have can we get the

holdovers in 19 minutes?

677

:

I

678

:

Jerome: think

679

:

Chris: we can.

680

:

I gotta get a kid in

the car to the airport.

681

:

This is gonna

682

:

Jerome: be our record episode.

683

:

Well, tell him to start loading the

car up right now so he's ready to go.

684

:

Alright, the holdovers.

685

:

I'll give you some quick specs here.

686

:

This one will be quicker because

it was a much shorter film.

687

:

2023, directed by Alexander Payne,

written by David Hemmingsen,

688

:

who also served as producer.

689

:

Oddly enough, despite a lot of

other work, this is Hemmingsen's

690

:

first feature film screenplay.

691

:

Starring Paul Giamatti as Paul Hunnam

Divine Joy Randolph as Mary Lamb,

692

:

and Dominic Sessa as Angus Tully.

693

:

Running time, two hours, 13 minutes,

with a budget of 13 million.

694

:

What a contrast from the other one.

695

:

Yeah, really.

696

:

It was released on November 10th,

:

697

:

at the box office, which obviously

more than doubles its budget.

698

:

Half of that was domestic.

699

:

So it made the same amount of amount

overseas as it made here in the U.

700

:

S.

701

:

Good for 80th place on the worldwide

list, beating out films like the

702

:

Iron Claw, Ferrari, 80 for Brady,

and two previous episode films,

703

:

Past Lives and Anatomy of a Fall.

704

:

It beat all of those.

705

:

All right.

706

:

What's your connection to this film?

707

:

Chris: My, it was my favorite one

of the year, I, you know, we, we

708

:

streamed it, what was it on, I forgot

what it was stream, what platform

709

:

it was streaming on, but we might

have rented it, I can't remember.

710

:

Jerome: I actually bought it on Blu ray.

711

:

Chris: Yeah, I wish I would have

bought it cause it was my favorite

712

:

of the year, I was disappointed

in the Academy Award take.

713

:

Jerome: Except for one.

714

:

Chris: Except for one, yeah.

715

:

So you want me to read the logline?

716

:

Jerome: Log me.

717

:

Chris: Okay.

718

:

A cranky history teacher at a prep

school is forced to remain on campus over

719

:

the holiday with a grieving cook and a

troubled student who has no place to go.

720

:

Jerome: Alright.

721

:

Chris: Another another thing about

my, my relationship to this film.

722

:

We watched this Jesse and I watched

this and Jonah, I think we called him

723

:

in the room and I don't remember if

he watched the whole thing or not, I

724

:

told him he's got to watch this movie.

725

:

Cause our son Jonah, he has a

History, a degree in history

726

:

from Michigan State University.

727

:

And he's, he wants to go on to teach.

728

:

He wants to, you know we're not sure

if he's going to be a professor, but

729

:

I, it was so funny because some of

the things Paul Giamatti were saying

730

:

to the students, we could totally see

our son Jonah saying to these kids.

731

:

I'm like, Oh my God, this is the

ghost of Christmas future, Jonah.

732

:

You better watch it.

733

:

Jerome: He doesn't have a lazy eye though.

734

:

You gotta give him a lazy eye.

735

:

Chris: And he doesn't smell like fish.

736

:

Jerome: Alright.

737

:

Opening image.

738

:

Oh I'm sorry.

739

:

We have the beats.

740

:

Opening image.

741

:

Choir practice.

742

:

A teacher instructing students.

743

:

1970 Christmas prep school in what

appears to be a New England area of

744

:

the country at a fictitious time.

745

:

Set up intro to Paul

Hunnam as he grades papers.

746

:

Intro to students,

specifically Angus Tully.

747

:

And then intro to Mary Lamb the cook.

748

:

It's interesting, all these three

introductions happen one after another.

749

:

And that'll be important later.

750

:

Inciting incident.

751

:

Nine minutes in, Paul gets his

assignment from the headmaster Woodrow.

752

:

That he has to stay over the holiday

and be the caretaker of the boys

753

:

that can't go home for the holidays.

754

:

Theme stated at the twelve minute mark.

755

:

Woodrow is telling Paul about

being less cantankerous with the

756

:

boys over the holiday, because

after all, it is Christmas.

757

:

He tells them, quote, at least

pretend to be a human being.

758

:

This will be Paul's running theme, where

he has this emotional shift throughout

759

:

the film of trying to be more laid back.

760

:

And then sometimes he reverts back

to his very stern and angry ways.

761

:

This will happen throughout the film.

762

:

It will go back and forth until

he reaches his spiritual goal.

763

:

Now, very interesting technique here.

764

:

Could be that it was because it's a

first time feature length film writer,

765

:

but I think it works very well.

766

:

The B story, the catalyst and the

break into two all happen at once.

767

:

This is unique technique.

768

:

Hemmingsen combines the three

beats in the one presumably to save

769

:

time, but they all serve the story.

770

:

20 minutes in Tully gets the

news that he in fact, will not

771

:

be joining his folks in St.

772

:

Kitts and he'll be stuck

with the other holdovers.

773

:

This is revealed as Paul is laying

out the plan and the rules of the

774

:

procedures to the other boys, as

Tully comes in to break the news.

775

:

This is the beginning of the

holiday break, and this is clearly

776

:

our jump into the new world, the

upside down version of Act One.

777

:

Everyone else is gone, and these

boys have begun Christmas break

778

:

with their cranky history teacher.

779

:

This also, I believe,

serves as the B story.

780

:

Because even though Tully has already

been introduced, he wasn't serving

781

:

this purpose then, but he is now

and it's gonna be Tully that helps

782

:

drive Paul to his spiritual goal.

783

:

Most people would look at this

and say that Divine Joy Randolph's

784

:

character, Mary Lamb, is the B story.

785

:

I don't think so.

786

:

And I'll tell you why.

787

:

She also disappears.

788

:

Near the end of the second act where we

need Paul to get to his spiritual goal.

789

:

It's Tully that drives him

there, Angus Tully, not the cook.

790

:

She's got her own story going

on, you know what I mean?

791

:

She's not there to serve his story.

792

:

Fun and Games, we deliver on the premise

of the first act of Act 2, first half of

793

:

Act 2, while the development of Mary's

presence would strongly suggest that

794

:

she's the B story, knowing she disappears

at the film's climax, doesn't drive

795

:

Paul to a spiritual goal, as I said.

796

:

In this segment we see the boys,

most of whom are strangers, right?

797

:

The only few of them know each

other, interacting outside by

798

:

a truck and sharing a smoke.

799

:

This scene is clever because it is

needed to explain who everybody is

800

:

and why they're stuck at the school.

801

:

But to keep it from sounding too much

like boring exposition, they spend the

802

:

scene slinging insults at each other.

803

:

And I thought that was another clever way

to keep it kind of fresh and entertaining.

804

:

We always talk about the, the, the

Death kill of exposition, where you

805

:

have to explain things to the audience.

806

:

In this scene, they use that opportunity

to insult each other, but by doing so,

807

:

they're telling the audience where each

of them are from, and why they're there.

808

:

Chris: Right, right.

809

:

Yeah, it was clever.

810

:

Yeah,

811

:

Jerome: Paul hangs out with

Mary on the very first night.

812

:

We get a little bit of backstory about

her son, Curtis, who was lost in Vietnam.

813

:

We also get a Save the

Cat vibe from Tully.

814

:

Now, we always talk about the Blake Snyder

books, where we get all these terms from.

815

:

Again, this is Blake Snyder's beat sheets

specifically that we use for these movies.

816

:

One element he called Save the Cat

was something you throw in there to

817

:

let the audience root for Somebody

who seems like a dipshit, but if you

818

:

give him something nice to do, then

the audience will follow them, right?

819

:

Tully is woken up in the middle of

the night by the little kid the Korean

820

:

kid, I think his last name was Park.

821

:

He had, had a nightmare,

and he peed himself.

822

:

But Tully is there, is like, instead

of making fun of him, he tells him,

823

:

like, look, roll over to the dry side.

824

:

And try to get back to sleep

in the morning, I'll help you.

825

:

If anybody else finds out,

they'll bury you for it.

826

:

I'll help you.

827

:

We'll clean the sheets

and do all that stuff.

828

:

So he's lending a helpful hand to a kid.

829

:

He doesn't even really know.

830

:

Right, right, right.

831

:

So that's his save the cat moment.

832

:

One of the other boys, rich

dad's helicopter shows up and

833

:

takes all the boys skiing.

834

:

All the parents are contacted

and gave their okay, except one.

835

:

Yeah.

836

:

Tully, of course.

837

:

So now it's a three person story now.

838

:

Now we have Paul and Mary and Tully.

839

:

A little bit more backstory on Paul

is the three of them now are forced

840

:

to spend the next evening together.

841

:

Paul tells how he almost married once.

842

:

Seeing the absolute dismay of Tully

being alone, no family or friends,

843

:

this forces Paul to attempt to, as the

headmaster said, Act like a human being.

844

:

He actually tries to be a little

bit more laid back at times.

845

:

There's a scene where he actually

offers him the cookies that he got

846

:

from Lydia earlier in the movie.

847

:

And when Tully storms off that

he doesn't want the cookies, he

848

:

actually looks at Mary, Paul looks

at Mary and says, well, I'm trying

849

:

to which she just starts laughing.

850

:

So he's, so he's acknowledging

that he's trying to be a

851

:

little bit more normal, right?

852

:

A little bit more of a human.

853

:

Tully, in an act of defiance in the

very next shot, ignores demands by

854

:

Paul to avoid the gym, he said, decides

to run and jump on the equipment,

855

:

and he dislocates his shoulder.

856

:

This is the first real bonding between

the two, as Paul has to take him to

857

:

the hospital, and Tully lies about

the relationship in order to prevent

858

:

his teacher from getting in trouble.

859

:

Midpoint scene, after bumping into

Lydia, who is one of the, who's

860

:

the one who gave Paul the cookies.

861

:

She reveals, oh, and by the way,

it's, it's presented that she's

862

:

sort of like a love interest, right?

863

:

Right, right, right.

864

:

There's a little bit of flirting

earlier in the movie when

865

:

she gives him the cookies.

866

:

There's definitely flirting here when

she sees him at the restaurant, and

867

:

she invites him to the Christmas party.

868

:

Right.

869

:

Paul's tangible goal of trying to,

quote unquote, act like a human, or

870

:

be a little bit more laid back, Right.

871

:

It's achieved when he

decides, okay, I'll go.

872

:

Because he wasn't going to at first.

873

:

He was being his cantankerous self.

874

:

I'm not going to the Christmas Eve party.

875

:

And Mary's like, you gotta go.

876

:

Take the kid, he wants to go.

877

:

Alright, fine, I'll go.

878

:

So he's achieving his tangible goal.

879

:

One hour and six minute mark,

he takes Mary and Tully.

880

:

Who meets a girl there, by the

way, that he actually likes.

881

:

This is a false victory for

Paul, and others, as things

882

:

are about to go sideways quick.

883

:

Bad guys closing in almost immediately

end to that midpoint scene.

884

:

The Christmas party doesn't end well.

885

:

Mary has had too much to drink and has

a meltdown in the kitchen over her son.

886

:

Meanwhile, possible love interest

Lydia kisses somebody else at the door

887

:

romantically, and Paul, who sees this,

just gives his disappointed sigh.

888

:

Of course with all these elements, they

feel like they have to leave the party,

889

:

which ruins Tully's chances with the girl.

890

:

Right.

891

:

So, all three had this great start

to the new year, and then, shit.

892

:

Not the new year.

893

:

A good start to Christmas Eve.

894

:

Christmas dinner, Paul gives a

compliment to Mary, and she actually

895

:

calls him on it, saying I don't have

the quote, but she says, look at you.

896

:

You complimented somebody, you know?

897

:

So again, again, with that, you know,

that theme of can I be laid back and

898

:

be a normal person or am I still just

going to be a mean, grumpy asshole?

899

:

Tully tries to capitalize on this

and asked him for a trip to Boston.

900

:

Mary probably could have helped

him squash that if she herself

901

:

didn't need a ride to Roxbury.

902

:

So she of course encourages it.

903

:

And what do they do?

904

:

They all go on a road trip.

905

:

So they drop Mary off at Roxbury

so she can see her sister, and

906

:

then they're off to Boston.

907

:

This, again, this is why I think

Mary is not the B story, because at

908

:

this pivotal point, she disappears.

909

:

There's mixed scenes of Paul

trying to be friendly, and,

910

:

and, in other parts, he's stern.

911

:

It's his emotional back and forth.

912

:

The bond with Tully culminates in

the ice skating scene, where they

913

:

bump into Hugh Cavanaugh, a nemesis

from Paul's past, and Tully lies to

914

:

help him get, look better, right?

915

:

Of course, this then, he's getting

grumpy again because he doesn't

916

:

want to have to talk about his past.

917

:

And the next scene, Tully gets him

to tell him why he left Harvard

918

:

in a very unceremonious way.

919

:

Next in the Candlepin Bowling scene, Paul

reverts back to his know it all self.

920

:

He stops being the friendly, kind of

laid back guy, and he actually tells

921

:

a guy that's dressed up as Santa how

his outfit is historically inaccurate.

922

:

Chris: Right.

923

:

Jerome: Tully gets up enough

nerve to ask him which eye does he

924

:

look at, because it's distracting

whenever he's talking to Paul.

925

:

Because Paul has a lazy eye.

926

:

And he never gives him

an answer at that point.

927

:

All is lost.

928

:

One hour, 43 minute mark.

929

:

Tully, who has convinced Paul to accompany

him to see his dad, comes face to face

930

:

with his father in a mental institution.

931

:

This scene is particularly heartbreaking

as Tully talks to him as a true

932

:

son, longing to be with his dad.

933

:

The most honest Tully will be in this

entire film, and all he's met with from

934

:

his father is an uttering that he thinks

the staff is trying to poison his food.

935

:

Dark Night of the Soul, Paul helps

Tully understand that he is not his

936

:

father, and he will never be his

father, and not to worry about that.

937

:

Mary joins them for dinner, there's

the Cherry's Jubilee scene where the

938

:

waitress won't serve the Cherry's

Jubilee to Tully because he's

939

:

underage and there's alcohol in it.

940

:

They then order all the ingredients,

take it outside, pour their own

941

:

booze in it, and light it on fire.

942

:

It's sort of like a coming together

for the three, which leads to our

943

:

break in the three, where they

celebrate New Year's Eve together with

944

:

Danny, who's like the janitor guy.

945

:

And Paul's still working, what?

946

:

Chris: I was gonna ask, are

we gonna spoil at the end?

947

:

Jerome: Yes.

948

:

I guess

949

:

Chris: you're gonna have to if

you're doing all the beats, huh?

950

:

Jerome: Spoiler alert!

951

:

It's coming!

952

:

Anyway, he gets another chance

to prove that he's a human, that

953

:

he's being laid back, when Tully

asks to light off a firecracker.

954

:

Of course, his first stern

reaction is, no way, right?

955

:

Cause that's what he does, no.

956

:

But then they're like, come on,

and he's like, alright, fine,

957

:

we'll do it in the kitchen.

958

:

This is Paul, with his

emotional tug of war, right?

959

:

Trying to be more human,

versus being a stern asshole.

960

:

Okay.

961

:

That brings us into Act 3 now because now

we are shifted out of Act 2 to where the

962

:

break is over and all the kids are back.

963

:

Right?

964

:

Five point finale.

965

:

Here we go.

966

:

Real quick.

967

:

Gathering the team.

968

:

The break is over and

school is back in session.

969

:

Smith has cut his hair.

970

:

Koontz got severely sunburned

and Paul is working on being

971

:

more laid back, more human.

972

:

Execution of the plan, a wiser Paul seems

to have learned his lessons on the journey

973

:

and will face the second half of the

school year perhaps less cranky and maybe

974

:

a little less hard assed as the first

class he comes back he's actually smiling

975

:

in class as he's talking to the students.

976

:

Hi, Tower of Surprise.

977

:

Tully's parents have arrived, and

they are pissed about the Boston trip.

978

:

Tully was not permitted to see his

father, and it caused a family stir.

979

:

Dig down deep.

980

:

Paul has a chance to

blame it all on Tully.

981

:

To get out of this.

982

:

In fact, the parents give him that out.

983

:

They even say, We know

he forced you to do this.

984

:

We know it's all on him.

985

:

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

986

:

Execution of the new plan.

987

:

Nope.

988

:

Paul even says, I don't give a shit.

989

:

Yeah, yep.

990

:

He falls on the metaphorical sword.

991

:

And he takes the blame.

992

:

In order to save Tully from expulsion

and eventually having to go to a

993

:

military school, military academy.

994

:

He tells the parents it was his idea.

995

:

Chris: And we should add, this is

taking place in the 70s, right?

996

:

Yep, so military academy would

imply he's going to Vietnam

997

:

Jerome: Vietnam.

998

:

Chris: Yeah.

999

:

Yeah.

:

00:44:40,787 --> 00:44:41,837

Jerome: Yeah, and you know what?

:

00:44:41,867 --> 00:44:45,087

I actually saw that somebody online

said that I think it was on reddit.

:

00:44:45,387 --> 00:44:47,657

They're like people don't realize

the impact of that moment Oh,

:

00:44:47,657 --> 00:44:49,667

Chris: yeah We

:

00:44:49,667 --> 00:44:53,917

Jerome: talked about oh man I have to

go to military school and Bill and Ted

:

00:44:54,177 --> 00:44:59,092

and dead poet society and all these

other movies where it's a threat And

:

00:44:59,092 --> 00:45:02,702

this time, that really was a threat

because you're going to Vietnam.

:

00:45:03,552 --> 00:45:05,052

So yeah, so that was a big deal.

:

00:45:05,052 --> 00:45:07,612

So he, he falls on the sword for Tully.

:

00:45:07,952 --> 00:45:08,932

He gets fired for it.

:

00:45:10,142 --> 00:45:13,802

This, after all, was the most

human thing he could have done.

:

00:45:14,382 --> 00:45:17,892

Before he leaves, he lets Tully know,

this is one of my favorite moments, when

:

00:45:17,892 --> 00:45:21,782

he comes out of the office, and Tully's

got tears in his eyes, and is staring

:

00:45:21,782 --> 00:45:24,872

at him, and he's kind of got tears in

his eyes, and they look at each other,

:

00:45:24,872 --> 00:45:29,332

and Mary is sitting there, and they're

all waiting for him to say something.

:

00:45:29,582 --> 00:45:33,802

I'm sorry, or I did it for you,

or I got fired, or whatever.

:

00:45:33,982 --> 00:45:35,832

There's nothing explained.

:

00:45:35,962 --> 00:45:38,202

He simply looks at Tully

and says one thing.

:

00:45:39,252 --> 00:45:39,702

This one.

:

00:45:40,287 --> 00:45:41,247

As he points to his eye.

:

00:45:41,257 --> 00:45:41,607

Yeah.

:

00:45:41,677 --> 00:45:42,997

This is the one you look at.

:

00:45:43,997 --> 00:45:44,817

And then he leaves.

:

00:45:44,877 --> 00:45:45,167

Yep.

:

00:45:45,467 --> 00:45:48,677

Like, Oh God, what a

heartbreaking way to end it.

:

00:45:49,267 --> 00:45:52,337

Climax Tully has led Paul

right to his spiritual goal.

:

00:45:52,377 --> 00:45:57,037

It was Tully after all that led him to a

spiritual goal without him, even without

:

00:45:57,067 --> 00:46:01,537

either of them even knowing it being a

Barton school hermit for most of his life.

:

00:46:01,547 --> 00:46:05,267

His termination will force Paul

to go out into the world and

:

00:46:05,267 --> 00:46:06,447

start living his life again.

:

00:46:06,487 --> 00:46:06,637

Yep.

:

00:46:07,207 --> 00:46:08,227

Chris: I love the final scene.

:

00:46:08,227 --> 00:46:09,437

I know you're getting to it right now.

:

00:46:09,447 --> 00:46:09,707

Yeah,

:

00:46:09,947 --> 00:46:12,657

Jerome: that was the spiritual goal

the whole time and perhaps the real

:

00:46:12,657 --> 00:46:17,387

meaning behind the stated theme, which

was try to act more like a human being.

:

00:46:17,907 --> 00:46:19,797

That meant get the hell

out of that school, man.

:

00:46:19,837 --> 00:46:20,737

Go live your life.

:

00:46:21,127 --> 00:46:22,182

Yeah, write your book.

:

00:46:22,182 --> 00:46:26,347

Almost like at the end of Dead Poets

Society how John Keating has to

:

00:46:26,347 --> 00:46:28,037

go off now into the world, right?

:

00:46:28,537 --> 00:46:32,367

Resolution, just as the intros to

Paul, Mary, and Tully all happened

:

00:46:32,367 --> 00:46:34,387

in order, so do their goodbyes.

:

00:46:34,867 --> 00:46:38,507

First, Mary gives him his journal

to write in on his journey.

:

00:46:38,907 --> 00:46:42,577

Then the next scene, Tully thanks

him outside and gives him a goodbye

:

00:46:42,587 --> 00:46:44,227

handshake in their final moment.

:

00:46:44,617 --> 00:46:49,597

And then lastly, Paul says himself

has to say goodbye to the school.

:

00:46:50,657 --> 00:46:54,237

He does this by, before

he drives off, he stops.

:

00:46:54,337 --> 00:46:58,547

He takes out the Remy Martin Louis

Tres, which is a very expensive

:

00:46:58,557 --> 00:46:59,582

bottle of brandy that he sold.

:

00:46:59,592 --> 00:47:01,152

Stole from Woodrow's office.

:

00:47:01,682 --> 00:47:05,542

Takes a big swig of it and spits it

out at the school before he leaves.

:

00:47:06,192 --> 00:47:09,232

By the way, a little trivia, that bottle,

that specific bottle, because there's

:

00:47:09,232 --> 00:47:10,912

a lot of versions of the Louis Tres.

:

00:47:10,932 --> 00:47:13,272

It's mentioned in

Cocktail with Tom Cruise.

:

00:47:13,542 --> 00:47:15,312

It's mentioned in a lot

of different movies.

:

00:47:15,562 --> 00:47:18,662

That specific bottle from that movie,

the wit with the box that it came

:

00:47:18,662 --> 00:47:20,992

in, would be worth 10, 000 today.

:

00:47:23,192 --> 00:47:27,062

Okay and then a close, the closing

image, Paul drives away, a teacher

:

00:47:27,062 --> 00:47:28,622

no longer instructing students.

:

00:47:29,452 --> 00:47:31,942

Character arc, as we talked about

real quick, Paul's tangible and

:

00:47:31,942 --> 00:47:35,692

spiritual goals both relate to the

theme about being more human like.

:

00:47:35,982 --> 00:47:38,602

But his spiritual goal, leaving

the school, is not one that

:

00:47:38,612 --> 00:47:39,922

he didn't know he needed.

:

00:47:40,122 --> 00:47:42,012

Again, if you had told him

that at the beginning, he would

:

00:47:42,012 --> 00:47:43,132

have said, no fucking way.

:

00:47:43,662 --> 00:47:43,982

Right?

:

00:47:43,982 --> 00:47:45,952

The school is the only

place he feels comfortable.

:

00:47:46,242 --> 00:47:48,142

So if you'd have told him by the

time this journey's over, you're

:

00:47:48,142 --> 00:47:50,432

going to leave the school, he

would have thought you were crazy.

:

00:47:50,642 --> 00:47:50,892

Yeah.

:

00:47:51,412 --> 00:47:55,222

Aside from Dead Poets Society, it's also

very, very, it's actually more similar.

:

00:47:55,252 --> 00:47:56,282

I was thinking Robin Williams.

:

00:47:56,292 --> 00:48:00,352

So I thought Dead Poets, it's actually

more similar to Good Will Hunting,

:

00:48:00,582 --> 00:48:00,612

Chris: where

:

00:48:02,362 --> 00:48:06,282

Jerome: Robin Williams character is kind

of stuck as being this psychiatrist since

:

00:48:06,282 --> 00:48:11,542

his wife died, and he's kind of stuck in

a rut, and then, you know, Will Hunting

:

00:48:11,582 --> 00:48:15,582

gets him out of his shell, and he leaves

at the end to go off and enjoy the world.

:

00:48:15,642 --> 00:48:15,902

Right.

:

00:48:15,972 --> 00:48:16,272

Right?

:

00:48:16,302 --> 00:48:16,502

Chris: Yep.

:

00:48:16,602 --> 00:48:17,762

Jerome: So it's kind of more like that.

:

00:48:17,772 --> 00:48:18,802

Did you have something to

say before we end there?

:

00:48:18,812 --> 00:48:19,102

Well,

:

00:48:19,122 --> 00:48:22,712

Chris: yeah, it's funny because, I know

we gotta wrap this up, but I, I, part

:

00:48:22,712 --> 00:48:27,517

of me was like, I wish it could have

ended in a way where because he finally

:

00:48:27,517 --> 00:48:30,837

made this connection with the kid who

is obviously doesn't have a father

:

00:48:30,837 --> 00:48:32,457

figure or a healthy father figure.

:

00:48:32,777 --> 00:48:36,547

And I was like, man, I wish they could

have continued some kind of relationship.

:

00:48:36,837 --> 00:48:41,747

That, but it just, I think the

ending was perfect because it's

:

00:48:41,747 --> 00:48:42,947

a professional relationship.

:

00:48:42,957 --> 00:48:44,367

You just can't write.

:

00:48:44,387 --> 00:48:47,817

And then when it ends, it would be weird

if he stayed in touch with the kid, right?

:

00:48:47,947 --> 00:48:49,007

It would just be strange.

:

00:48:49,017 --> 00:48:49,367

Exactly.

:

00:48:49,377 --> 00:48:54,607

So it ended perfectly and he

was able to do something his

:

00:48:54,607 --> 00:48:55,847

father never could have done.

:

00:48:56,172 --> 00:48:59,932

Stand up for him, and defend him, and

go to bat for him, and all that stuff.

:

00:48:59,932 --> 00:49:00,292

Or his

:

00:49:00,292 --> 00:49:01,132

Jerome: mom and stepdad.

:

00:49:01,152 --> 00:49:01,852

Chris: Yeah, exactly.

:

00:49:01,862 --> 00:49:02,582

Nobody

:

00:49:02,592 --> 00:49:03,692

Jerome: stands up for this kid.

:

00:49:03,712 --> 00:49:03,952

Chris: Yeah.

:

00:49:04,532 --> 00:49:05,102

So, I loved it.

:

00:49:05,112 --> 00:49:06,192

I loved the way it ended.

:

00:49:06,592 --> 00:49:09,032

Yeah, so really quick, six degrees.

:

00:49:09,362 --> 00:49:10,882

Jerome: Wait, wait, wait, before

we get to that, real quick.

:

00:49:11,412 --> 00:49:14,872

Nominated for five Academy Awards

at 1 1, Best Supporting Actress for

:

00:49:14,872 --> 00:49:17,212

Divine Joy Randolph, who played Mary.

:

00:49:18,042 --> 00:49:20,112

One interesting fact about

her performance, she's a

:

00:49:20,112 --> 00:49:21,432

non smoker in real life.

:

00:49:21,802 --> 00:49:24,352

So they gave her fake cigarettes

for the shoot, but she didn't

:

00:49:24,352 --> 00:49:27,042

think it looked realistic, so she

wanted to use real cigarettes.

:

00:49:27,452 --> 00:49:31,882

But so that she wouldn't get addicted,

she found one that was the worst tasting.

:

00:49:32,162 --> 00:49:34,162

Turns out to be American Spirits.

:

00:49:34,712 --> 00:49:38,662

She smoked those in the movie so that

when the movie shooting was done, she

:

00:49:38,662 --> 00:49:40,712

could easily quit and not be addicted.

:

00:49:41,252 --> 00:49:43,152

After it was made, it

didn't have a distributor.

:

00:49:43,192 --> 00:49:45,642

Alexander Payne, we've talked about

this in our previous podcast, he

:

00:49:45,642 --> 00:49:49,467

took it to the Toronto Toronto

International Film Festival and Focus

:

00:49:49,467 --> 00:49:50,907

Features bought it for 30 million.

:

00:49:50,927 --> 00:49:51,597

Wow.

:

00:49:51,607 --> 00:49:55,497

It's the fifth Alexander Payne

movie to feature some sort of a road

:

00:49:55,497 --> 00:49:57,897

trip following About Schmidt:

:

00:49:59,262 --> 00:50:04,662

I'm sorry,:

Descendants 2011, and Nebraska 2013.

:

00:50:05,142 --> 00:50:09,142

I already talked about that

bottle of Remy Martin Louis Tres.

:

00:50:09,142 --> 00:50:11,212

It was 10, 000.

:

00:50:11,212 --> 00:50:15,427

Also, because that bottle that it

comes in, Well, it's a good thing I

:

00:50:15,447 --> 00:50:18,887

Chris: didn't drink today because it

would have been really expensive to copy

:

00:50:19,277 --> 00:50:19,457

Jerome: that.

:

00:50:19,467 --> 00:50:22,047

Yeah, if we pulled that off, that would

have been the podcast of all podcasts.

:

00:50:22,317 --> 00:50:23,867

Before we get to Six Degrees,

one more quick thing.

:

00:50:23,867 --> 00:50:27,937

The funniest, one of the funniest parts of

the movie, it's loaded with funny parts.

:

00:50:28,422 --> 00:50:31,592

But one of the best exchanges he has

with Koontz in the beginning of the

:

00:50:31,592 --> 00:50:34,502

film when he gives them all their

papers and most of them have failed.

:

00:50:34,612 --> 00:50:34,892

Chris: Yeah.

:

00:50:35,322 --> 00:50:37,122

Jerome: The kid goes I don't understand.

:

00:50:37,732 --> 00:50:39,492

And Paul goes, that's obvious.

:

00:50:39,492 --> 00:50:41,772

And he's like Well, then the

:

00:50:41,902 --> 00:50:42,262

Chris: other kid

:

00:50:42,262 --> 00:50:43,512

Jerome: says, I can't fail.

:

00:50:43,612 --> 00:50:47,002

Yeah, and he goes, he goes, no, no, no,

what I mean is I can't fail this class.

:

00:50:47,012 --> 00:50:49,262

And he goes, oh, I don't think

you're selling yourself short, Mr.

:

00:50:49,262 --> 00:50:49,482

Koontz.

:

00:50:49,622 --> 00:50:50,662

I'd certainly believe that you can.

:

00:50:50,832 --> 00:50:51,252

Yeah.

:

00:50:51,337 --> 00:50:52,077

Chris: That was great.

:

00:50:52,377 --> 00:50:54,417

Jerome: So he had lines like

that throughout the whole film.

:

00:50:54,437 --> 00:50:59,217

That and telling the guy dressed up as

Santa, the drunk in the bar that's dressed

:

00:50:59,217 --> 00:51:03,597

up as Santa how his outfit is historically

inaccurate was another great scene for me.

:

00:51:03,597 --> 00:51:04,977

I was laughing my ass off.

:

00:51:05,017 --> 00:51:05,317

Yeah.

:

00:51:05,367 --> 00:51:05,657

All right.

:

00:51:05,667 --> 00:51:06,327

Six degrees.

:

00:51:06,327 --> 00:51:06,947

Who did you pick?

:

00:51:07,047 --> 00:51:07,797

Chris: Six degrees.

:

00:51:07,827 --> 00:51:12,157

I actually was going through the list

and I forgot Jack White was in Flower

:

00:51:12,157 --> 00:51:13,857

Moon until I went into the credits.

:

00:51:13,857 --> 00:51:14,627

I'm like, Jack White?

:

00:51:14,657 --> 00:51:15,157

Oh my God.

:

00:51:15,157 --> 00:51:15,647

I forgot.

:

00:51:15,917 --> 00:51:20,737

So I picked Jack White and Dominic Sessa.

:

00:51:21,292 --> 00:51:22,142

Jerome: Yes, Dominic Sessa.

:

00:51:22,822 --> 00:51:25,802

Alright, Jack White, who plays radio

show announcer in Killer of the

:

00:51:25,802 --> 00:51:28,682

Flower Moon, and Dominic Sessa, who

plays Angus Tully in The Holdovers.

:

00:51:28,972 --> 00:51:32,682

So Jack White, you would think, would

be a tough one, because aside from

:

00:51:32,712 --> 00:51:36,412

all the million videos he's done,

he's also appeared in a lot of TV,

:

00:51:36,482 --> 00:51:38,132

not that many movie appearances.

:

00:51:38,132 --> 00:51:38,402

Right,

:

00:51:38,482 --> 00:51:38,752

Chris: right.

:

00:51:38,832 --> 00:51:44,322

Jerome: One of them, however, was Cold

Mountain in:

:

00:51:44,322 --> 00:51:49,502

with people, including Rene Zellweger,

who was in Cinderella Man,:

:

00:51:49,532 --> 00:51:50,942

the boxing movie with Russell Crowe.

:

00:51:51,362 --> 00:51:56,082

Also had Paul Giamatti, who was in

the holdovers with Dominic Sesson.

:

00:51:56,102 --> 00:51:59,182

So we normally don't use the movies

that we're talking about, but I

:

00:51:59,192 --> 00:52:02,147

had no choice with Dominic Sesson

because this was his only movie.

:

00:52:02,367 --> 00:52:03,067

So three.

:

00:52:03,137 --> 00:52:06,097

Cold Mountain, Cinderella Man,

and The Holdovers will connect

:

00:52:06,097 --> 00:52:07,127

Dominic Sessa to Jack White.

:

00:52:07,697 --> 00:52:10,387

Chris: Well, as always, this is fun.

:

00:52:10,477 --> 00:52:14,107

This coming week we're going to be doing

some in person recording, hopefully.

:

00:52:14,427 --> 00:52:15,967

So stay tuned for, for that.

:

00:52:15,967 --> 00:52:18,287

You might actually get to

see some of that on socials.

:

00:52:18,777 --> 00:52:21,987

Before this even airs, so we'll

find out, but because Jerome is

:

00:52:21,997 --> 00:52:23,477

bringing the fam back to Michigan.

:

00:52:24,307 --> 00:52:27,447

Jerome: Yes, me, the wife, the

kids, we're all heading to Detroit.

:

00:52:27,447 --> 00:52:30,967

I'm wearing my lion's jersey,

my Kelvin Johnson black lion's

:

00:52:30,967 --> 00:52:32,327

jersey as a commemorative.

:

00:52:32,567 --> 00:52:36,277

Yes, we get on a plane tomorrow

and we will be headed to Detroit.

:

00:52:36,507 --> 00:52:38,567

Chris: Can't wait, and we're

gonna, we're going to see a

:

00:52:38,567 --> 00:52:40,497

Red Wings game Thursday, right?

:

00:52:40,587 --> 00:52:43,327

Jerome: Thursday night, we're gonna

see Red Wings and the Islanders

:

00:52:43,377 --> 00:52:45,537

at the Little Caesars Arena.

:

00:52:45,577 --> 00:52:46,637

I haven't been there yet.

:

00:52:48,252 --> 00:52:50,862

I like to call it, my little

nickname for it is The Oven.

:

00:52:51,432 --> 00:52:53,312

So we're gonna go see

The Wings at The Oven!

:

00:52:53,372 --> 00:52:54,562

Chris: Been there a few times, yeah.

:

00:52:54,652 --> 00:52:55,392

It's gonna be fun.

:

00:52:56,792 --> 00:53:00,362

Alright, well, go support

your local cinemas.

:

00:53:00,592 --> 00:53:01,432

Jerome: Yes sir!

:

00:53:01,492 --> 00:53:02,562

Keep drinking and keep watching.

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About the Podcast

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Silver Screen Happy Hour
With the Wiegand Brothers

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About your hosts

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Jerome Wiegand

Born and raised in Metro Detroit, Michigan. Graduate of Columbia College Chicago with a degree in Film/Screenwriting. Have lived in California since 2001. I enjoy screenwriting, script consulting and film analysis.
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Chris Wiegand